PHỎNG VÂN Sergei Khrushchev
Con trai cố Tổng Bí thư Liên Xô Nikita Khrushchev – CNN thực hiện
CNN: Khách mời tối nay của chúng tôi là Sergei Khrushchev, con trai cố Tổng Bí thư Liên Xô Nikita Khrushchev. Ông hiện đang định cư tại Mỹ và giảng dạy tại Đại học Brown về kinh tế chính trị Liên Xô và nước Nga. Ông vừa hiệu chỉnh và cho xuất bản hồi ức của cha ông. Ông từng là một kỹ sư và đã được Chính phủ Liên Xô tuyên thưởng vì những đóng góp trong lĩnh vực không gian và computer.
CNN: Hầu hết người Mỹ ngày nay đều biết rất ít về cuộc sống đời thường ở Liên Xô. Vậy cuộc sống của thành viên trong gia đình của một nhà lãnh đạo Xôviết diễn ra như thế nào?
Sergei Khrushchev: Tôi cho là ở đâu cũng như vậy thôi, bởi anh đang sống và sinh hoạt trong những điều kiện ưu đãi và tất nhiên mức sống của anh sẽ phải cao hơn mức sống của những người khác nhưng mặt khác, anh phải chịu những trách nhiệm rất nặng nề. Tôi còn nhớ khi mình còn bé, mẹ tôi luôn nhắc nhở tôi rằng tôi không được làm điều này, không được làm điều kia bởi tôi là con trai của cha tôi và tất nhiên, ngược lại khi tôi cố gắng thử làm điều gì thì cha tôi luôn nhắc nhở tôi, “Con phải luôn nhớ rằng cha chính là Tổng Bí thư chứ không phải là con.” Do đó tôi cũng thấy là bình thường tại đất nước này (nước Mỹ), khi mọi người chúng ta giờ đây tò mò quan sát chuyện đời tư trong Nhà Trắng thì tôi nghĩ cuộc sống của họ (Tổng thống và gia đình) chắc cũng chẳng dễ dàng gì.
Khán giả: Ông có cho rằng cuộc sống ở nước Nga ngày nay tốt đẹp hơn thời ông còn trẻ không?
Sergei Khrushchev: Anh biết đấy, đó là câu hỏi mà những người cùng tuổi tôi ngày nay đang thắc mắc. Tôi xin trả lời rằng cuộc sống ở nước Nga khi tôi còn trẻ tốt đẹp hơn, bởi lúc đó tôi còn trẻ. Nhưng nếu xét về đời sống chính trị và kinh tế thì tôi cho rằng trong thời đó, chúng tôi nhìn nhận mọi chuyện rất khác, thời chúng tôi mọi người rất hy vọng vào tương lai – hy vọng rằng tương lai mọi chuyện đều sẽ tốt đẹp hơn. Tôi nghĩ rằng con người thời kỳ đó lạc quan hơn bây giờ.
Khán giả: Các ông nhìn nhận sự phát triển của phương Tây như thế nào?
Sergei Khrushchev: Vâng, chúng tôi sống trong một xã hội vô cùng khép kín đằng sau Bức màn sắt, do cả hai phía cùng xây dựng nên. Vào thời đó, tôi còn nhớ rằng chúng tôi chắc chắn người Mỹ sẽ luôn tìm cách gây chiến chống lại Liên Xô ngay khi họ có một cơ hội đầu tiên. Hơn nữa, chúng tôi cho rằng tất cả nhân dân trong thế giới tư bản đều rất nghèo, họ phải đứng xếp hàng chờ được phát thức ăn hàng ngày và họ đang mơ về một cuộc cách mạng vô sản. Đó là vào cuối thời đại Stalin, đó là những suy nghĩ của tôi khi tôi còn cắp sách đi học, và cũng là suy nghĩ của các bạn tôi. Their knowledge about both sides is most important. I think that maybe the biggest achievement of President Eisenhower was the creation of the People to People's diplomacy where the people met with each other and exchanged their ideas and even simply shook hands.
CNN Moderator: What were your own experiences in the Soviet rocket program?
Sergei Khrushchev: I was a young engineer, graduated after the first Sputnik in 1958. I began work, not with space, but with the cruise missiles for the submarine. At that time, the Soviet Union was ahead of the U.S. for maybe 15 years because we designed sub cruise missiles which launched from the containers which changed all the ideology of the cruise missiles. There were two sides, of course we were scared of Americans and we tried to build some retaliation possibilities. But the most important is the feeling that you achieved something new. And when you launched the missile that at last it could fly ... we were very proud of our work, of our profession. Of course like everywhere, there were more failures than success in my own life. But not successful launches were even really more interesting because then you have to find the cause of the failure. I remember that this search for the cause was most interesting personally for me. Of course it was very difficult life in the desert. There was no green grass there, especially the autumn. When the big generals visited our test site before they arrived, soldiers painted the brown grass in green.
CNN Moderator: Did the Soviets feel, as the Americans did, that the space race was part of a great ideological struggle between East and West?
Sergei Khrushchev: Yes and no. Because the Soviet space achievement was the side product of designing intercontinental missile, because the main goal was to have retaliation capability. Not only ordinary people, but my father was scared that we are weak and when he rejected the open sky it was mainly because he thought that then Americans will find out how weak we are. He didn't want the U.S. to know how weak we were. But when the first Sputnik had been launched, and my father found the reaction of the world, it first of all proved to him that we are on the right track, that our society will be more effective than capitalistic society. Of course, he tried to throw it to everybody in the world, especially to Americans. When he visited U.S. in 1959, I was with him. Soviets just launched the first probe to the moon. And he brought with him, the copy of this small ball, like a baseball, not bigger and he was very happy to present it to the American president and show that we are on the moon, not you.
Chat Participant: How much did you know of the U.S. military buildup and U.S. technology?
Sergei Khrushchev: Because I worked in the military industry, we read American magazines, so we knew something. We knew that your technology is very good. And that U.S. was ahead of us. But in some fields, we thought that we were ahead of U.S., so it was real race on the technology. We wanted of course to be ahead of Americans who were our competition. I will not use the word enemy, it was more technological competition for us as engineers. I don't think that intelligence information had been very important. Because if you want to be ahead of your competitor, you mustn't copy. You must design something by yourself. I remember when the KGB sent us our design bureau maybe 5-10 volumes about information about one of the American missiles, anti-aircraft missile, and they need the answer, and our response, so our chief told one of our leading engineers to sit in the special room and read all these volumes. He read this about 2 weeks then our chief asked him did you read all? He said only about one-half or one-quarter of all these volumes. One-quarter. He told the chief to send the KGB the letter that they made the great job and it's very important. Then sent all these books to the archive and return to your work and we never used this information because it was all the details of the American technology. And we had to work with our technology, which was different.
Chat Participant: What convinced your father to make his secret speech to the party regarding Stalin? Was it risky for your father to do this?
Sergei Khrushchev: First of all my father truly believed that communism will create the better life for the people. And he told that we want to build the paradise on the earth. But how is it possible to live in the paradise surrounded by the barbed wire? So he told that we have to tell people the truth about Stalin's crimes and begin to build the real democratic socialism, or communism. And it is impossible to do without exposure of these crimes. It was a strong discussion in the Soviet leadership at the time. Mainly the members of the leadership were against this. Because they were scared that they could be also condemned. Not only condemned, but punished. My father answered them. Then, during Stalin's times, all members of the leadership were involved in these bloody affairs. But we have to tell people the truth and then they have to decide what to do. Without this, it will be impossible to go forward. Later, he told, that the night before speech he thought that maybe they will try to arrest him, but nothing happened.
Chat Participant: Was there a Soviet equivalent of the Star Wars program?
Sergei Khrushchev: Yes and no. Because most of the Soviet engineers did not believe in the effectiveness of the Star Wars. I also never believe in it. Because if you have conventional air force without nuclear weapons and you will shoot 80 or 90 percent of the enemy bombers, you will win and protect your country. But if 10 percent of the enemy's nuclear weapons will hit your country, this will mean that you failed in this protection. And I don't think that is it possible to shoot 100 percent of ballistic warheads. But from the other side of course, some people in Soviet military industrial complex used this idea and sent many proposals to build the same lasers as Americans.
Now it reminded me when my father talked to President Eisenhower and the president asked him, "Mr. Chairman, how do you deal with your military?" and my father was surprised why he asked such a question. But the president told, you know, that our generals, when they visit me and informed me that Soviets designed this and this and this, so they are becoming much stronger, and they need more funding to design their own weapons. And President Eisenhower told I'm answering that we have no more money in our budget, and military answered him, if you will not give us this money which is required, you will be responsible that we will lose the war. And so, Eisenhower told, at last I'm finding this money and paying for the new research. And my father then told President Eisenhower that this same thing had happened in the Soviet Union. So the president told my father, then maybe we will find how we can work together against our military. So it was just the same with Star Wars. There were some people who used Star Wars to achieve their own goals and have much more funding. In this case, the military industrialists on both sides really supported each other on the spending.
CNN Moderator: Some historians argue that Gorbachev's reforms began where your father left off. What do you think of that theory?
Sergei Khrushchev: You think that between Gorbachev and my father, there were 20 years. So the country changed at this time. I think there were some similarities. Because both of them honestly wanted to reform Soviet Union to the best and to stop the Cold War, or maybe prevent the possibility of world war. So, I think there is something in this thought.
Chat Participant: What did your father think of Eisenhower? And Kennedy?
Sergei Khrushchev: I will publish an 1,100 page book next year where I am writing about all these things, so I can't possibly answer in a few minutes. But he thought that both of these American leaders really want to prevent the war and to find some peaceful solutions. In this way, he trusted them, if it is possible to use this word 'trust' in the Cold War relations. He thought that Eisenhower was much more experienced politician than President Kennedy. But from the other side he thought that the real policy maker was somebody behind President Eisenhower. Because he told when the Geneva Conference in 1955 he sat next to American president at the table and when it came time for president to talk, Secretary of State John Foster Dulles gave him the sheets of paper and my father told that he was very surprised that American president read them like a student. He did not 'use' them. He read them from beginning to end. So he said we spoke with American president, but policy maker was somebody else. But President Kennedy he said was very different. During their meeting in Vienna, he never asked any advice. So he was really the person who made the American policy which made these relations easier.
Chat Participant: What were your first thoughts when you heard of Kennedy's death? What were your father's comments?
Sergei Khrushchev: I remember this evening very well. It was late evening in Moscow at that time. The foreign minister, Gromyko, called my father at home and my father was very upset and he asked him to call to the ambassador to confirm if it's true. And then he waited. He could not sit. He walked around the table awaiting the call. In 10 minutes, there were no call, and he called back to the foreign minister. And he asked, do you have the new information? And he said, no, I'm just waiting the connection to the embassy in Russia. My father said, I told you to call the American embassy in Moscow, it's much easier. But there was no need to call. Because it was announced that President Kennedy was dead. My father said, we have to send very high level delegation for his funeral. It was unusual, because we were really enemies. And he told my mother that you have to send a personal letter to Jacqueline Kennedy, which was even more unusual. And what I can tell really, the Soviet people liked the President Kennedy, maybe because he was young and dynamic. I was personally very upset.
CNN Moderator: Your father's policies toward Yugoslavia hinted at more openness toward Warsaw Pact countries, yet he ordered the 1956 crackdown in Hungary. Do you see that as a contradiction?
Sergei Khrushchev: I don't see any contradiction because it was the peak of the Cold War and the Americans tried to support the order in their side of the world. He tried to do the same in the Soviet bloc. At that time, it was beginning of the bloodshed in Hungary and it was impossible to stop it without using the force. He was successful in preventing similar bloody event in Poland a month earlier. It is very difficult to say who is right, who is wrong, because the blood is the same color on both sides.
Chat Participant: Were plans made for your family in the event of a nuclear attack? If so, what were they?
Sergei Khrushchev: You know what you are showing here, it is the naivete of the American society. Because we were never attacked by the real enemy. We just survived the German occupation of a big part of our country. So it was clear that if it will be the nuclear attack, nobody will survive. There were no special preparations. Of course, there was a bunker in the Kremlin and small bunker near my father's country house. But nobody really thought out, or tried to find out how to use them. I don't remember being there, even once. All the time it was locked. Even in the peak of the Cuban Missile Crisis, there were no special preparations.
CNN Moderator: Was the U.S. reaction to missiles in Cuba part of that same American naivete?
Sergei Khrushchev: No I think it's different, but it had the same rules. Because in Europe, Soviet Union, the other countries all the time had powerful enemies on their borders. There were Germans, Turks, Poles, so our way of thinking was not so much of the technical capability of the hostile weapons but of the political decisions of the leaders. So the Soviet leaders and the Soviet people were very unhappy that we were surrounded by the American air bases and missile bases, but it was part of our life. America all their history were protected by the oceans. They have no enemies close to the borders. So they more thinking and still thinking about technical capability of the strike than of the political decision. They still think that if somebody will have the missile which can reach their territory, the bad guy will push the button. When the Soviet Union deployed missiles on Cuba, when in reality Cuba is independent country, Americans were so scared that they even became mad, that they were ready to sacrifice their life in the nuclear war but keep these missiles out of the Cuban island. What I have in mind, because American public pressed the White House to begin the invasion in Cuba. But this invasion was very risky, and high possibility that it will be the beginning of the third world war, but they still pressed the president and president upholds this. I think we were very lucky that both leaders did not lose control over this situation. And so this crisis ended peacefully.
Chat Participant: Was your father still a true believer in the communist state at the end of his life?
Sergei Khrushchev: When we are talking about the true believers, was that the communist economy or centralized economy will be more effective than market economy. I can tell that he believed in this until the end of his life. But from the other side, he asked the question which he had no answer. Why does not effective as he expected? But for the most of the Soviet people, understanding that market economy is more effective came in the late '70s and at that time, my father passed away in 1971.
Chat Participant: I believe it is a common American perspective that the Soviet people were unaware of the true nature of events in the world. Did the Soviet people have the same perspective of the American people? Did you think that our government was giving us a false picture of the world?
Sergei Khrushchev: There were different people. But some of them of course thought that the Americans were misled by the government and the capitalists who controlled most of the money. But it was different in the different eras of the history because I don't think that Soviet people were so misled by the government. Because in the early period after the revolution and after World War II most of the Soviet people believed that our socialist idea will be more effective. We talked about this. Later they began to understand that something was wrong and they began not to trust the government. At the end of Brezhnev era, they did not trust them at all. A nice thing that it was also similar changes with their thoughts about Americans. In the old late Brezhnev times, Americans were more example of the good life which is why the reformation was so easy. There was no real opposition to the market reforms in Russia.
CNN Moderator: Do you still have family members in Russia? How does the Russian public think of your father's legacy today?
Sergei Khrushchev: We are living in the United States, two of us, my wife and me. Our children and grandchildren live in Moscow. My father had this bad luck because during this Brezhnev time, he became a non-person and his name was not mentioned. Now, when most of them became anti-communist they thought that he, it not so bad, so they also don't mention him too much. But in the last year, it was published one volume of his memoirs in Moscow, and they became best seller. And one of the newspapers even wrote that this book has to be the textbook for the candidates for the Russian presidents. And the third, it is sad for me, but Russians more and more try to see the hero and the Stalinists never liked my father. So it is very controversial in Russia, like everything.
CNN Moderator: We have time for one more question.
Chat Participant: How did your father handle his retirement? Was he bitter about being forced out of power?
Sergei Khrushchev: Yes, my father, retirement in Russia is very different than in U.S.. My father was very lucky that he was not executed. When he first came after the meeting when he was ousted [out] of power he told that it was impossible even to imagine that somebody can oust of the power the leader without bloody fight. Of course he had in mind Stalin. So he told would it be only one thing which I did, it would mean that I did not live my life for nothing. Because I changed this country. During his retirement, he rethought many things, and he dictated his memoirs, which were partially published in this country in 1970 and 1974 as "Khrushchev Remembers." Full memoirs will be published sometime in future if we raise enough money for the translation into English. It was not easy to write this memoirs and their circumstances because Brezhnev government and KGB tried to do everything to prevent this writing. By the way, I wrote all this story in my own book with the title "Khrushchev on Khrushchev." It was published in 1990 by Little Brown, so if someone is interested they can find this book in the library and read it.
CNN Moderator: Thank you for joining us. CNN Interactive hosts a COLD WAR chat every Sunday at 9:30 p.m. ET following CNN's COLD WAR series and CNN Postscript.
Con trai cố Tổng Bí thư Liên Xô Nikita Khrushchev – CNN thực hiện
CNN: Khách mời tối nay của chúng tôi là Sergei Khrushchev, con trai cố Tổng Bí thư Liên Xô Nikita Khrushchev. Ông hiện đang định cư tại Mỹ và giảng dạy tại Đại học Brown về kinh tế chính trị Liên Xô và nước Nga. Ông vừa hiệu chỉnh và cho xuất bản hồi ức của cha ông. Ông từng là một kỹ sư và đã được Chính phủ Liên Xô tuyên thưởng vì những đóng góp trong lĩnh vực không gian và computer.
CNN: Hầu hết người Mỹ ngày nay đều biết rất ít về cuộc sống đời thường ở Liên Xô. Vậy cuộc sống của thành viên trong gia đình của một nhà lãnh đạo Xôviết diễn ra như thế nào?
Sergei Khrushchev: Tôi cho là ở đâu cũng như vậy thôi, bởi anh đang sống và sinh hoạt trong những điều kiện ưu đãi và tất nhiên mức sống của anh sẽ phải cao hơn mức sống của những người khác nhưng mặt khác, anh phải chịu những trách nhiệm rất nặng nề. Tôi còn nhớ khi mình còn bé, mẹ tôi luôn nhắc nhở tôi rằng tôi không được làm điều này, không được làm điều kia bởi tôi là con trai của cha tôi và tất nhiên, ngược lại khi tôi cố gắng thử làm điều gì thì cha tôi luôn nhắc nhở tôi, “Con phải luôn nhớ rằng cha chính là Tổng Bí thư chứ không phải là con.” Do đó tôi cũng thấy là bình thường tại đất nước này (nước Mỹ), khi mọi người chúng ta giờ đây tò mò quan sát chuyện đời tư trong Nhà Trắng thì tôi nghĩ cuộc sống của họ (Tổng thống và gia đình) chắc cũng chẳng dễ dàng gì.
Khán giả: Ông có cho rằng cuộc sống ở nước Nga ngày nay tốt đẹp hơn thời ông còn trẻ không?
Sergei Khrushchev: Anh biết đấy, đó là câu hỏi mà những người cùng tuổi tôi ngày nay đang thắc mắc. Tôi xin trả lời rằng cuộc sống ở nước Nga khi tôi còn trẻ tốt đẹp hơn, bởi lúc đó tôi còn trẻ. Nhưng nếu xét về đời sống chính trị và kinh tế thì tôi cho rằng trong thời đó, chúng tôi nhìn nhận mọi chuyện rất khác, thời chúng tôi mọi người rất hy vọng vào tương lai – hy vọng rằng tương lai mọi chuyện đều sẽ tốt đẹp hơn. Tôi nghĩ rằng con người thời kỳ đó lạc quan hơn bây giờ.
Khán giả: Các ông nhìn nhận sự phát triển của phương Tây như thế nào?
Sergei Khrushchev: Vâng, chúng tôi sống trong một xã hội vô cùng khép kín đằng sau Bức màn sắt, do cả hai phía cùng xây dựng nên. Vào thời đó, tôi còn nhớ rằng chúng tôi chắc chắn người Mỹ sẽ luôn tìm cách gây chiến chống lại Liên Xô ngay khi họ có một cơ hội đầu tiên. Hơn nữa, chúng tôi cho rằng tất cả nhân dân trong thế giới tư bản đều rất nghèo, họ phải đứng xếp hàng chờ được phát thức ăn hàng ngày và họ đang mơ về một cuộc cách mạng vô sản. Đó là vào cuối thời đại Stalin, đó là những suy nghĩ của tôi khi tôi còn cắp sách đi học, và cũng là suy nghĩ của các bạn tôi. Their knowledge about both sides is most important. I think that maybe the biggest achievement of President Eisenhower was the creation of the People to People's diplomacy where the people met with each other and exchanged their ideas and even simply shook hands.
CNN Moderator: What were your own experiences in the Soviet rocket program?
Sergei Khrushchev: I was a young engineer, graduated after the first Sputnik in 1958. I began work, not with space, but with the cruise missiles for the submarine. At that time, the Soviet Union was ahead of the U.S. for maybe 15 years because we designed sub cruise missiles which launched from the containers which changed all the ideology of the cruise missiles. There were two sides, of course we were scared of Americans and we tried to build some retaliation possibilities. But the most important is the feeling that you achieved something new. And when you launched the missile that at last it could fly ... we were very proud of our work, of our profession. Of course like everywhere, there were more failures than success in my own life. But not successful launches were even really more interesting because then you have to find the cause of the failure. I remember that this search for the cause was most interesting personally for me. Of course it was very difficult life in the desert. There was no green grass there, especially the autumn. When the big generals visited our test site before they arrived, soldiers painted the brown grass in green.
CNN Moderator: Did the Soviets feel, as the Americans did, that the space race was part of a great ideological struggle between East and West?
Sergei Khrushchev: Yes and no. Because the Soviet space achievement was the side product of designing intercontinental missile, because the main goal was to have retaliation capability. Not only ordinary people, but my father was scared that we are weak and when he rejected the open sky it was mainly because he thought that then Americans will find out how weak we are. He didn't want the U.S. to know how weak we were. But when the first Sputnik had been launched, and my father found the reaction of the world, it first of all proved to him that we are on the right track, that our society will be more effective than capitalistic society. Of course, he tried to throw it to everybody in the world, especially to Americans. When he visited U.S. in 1959, I was with him. Soviets just launched the first probe to the moon. And he brought with him, the copy of this small ball, like a baseball, not bigger and he was very happy to present it to the American president and show that we are on the moon, not you.
Chat Participant: How much did you know of the U.S. military buildup and U.S. technology?
Sergei Khrushchev: Because I worked in the military industry, we read American magazines, so we knew something. We knew that your technology is very good. And that U.S. was ahead of us. But in some fields, we thought that we were ahead of U.S., so it was real race on the technology. We wanted of course to be ahead of Americans who were our competition. I will not use the word enemy, it was more technological competition for us as engineers. I don't think that intelligence information had been very important. Because if you want to be ahead of your competitor, you mustn't copy. You must design something by yourself. I remember when the KGB sent us our design bureau maybe 5-10 volumes about information about one of the American missiles, anti-aircraft missile, and they need the answer, and our response, so our chief told one of our leading engineers to sit in the special room and read all these volumes. He read this about 2 weeks then our chief asked him did you read all? He said only about one-half or one-quarter of all these volumes. One-quarter. He told the chief to send the KGB the letter that they made the great job and it's very important. Then sent all these books to the archive and return to your work and we never used this information because it was all the details of the American technology. And we had to work with our technology, which was different.
Chat Participant: What convinced your father to make his secret speech to the party regarding Stalin? Was it risky for your father to do this?
Sergei Khrushchev: First of all my father truly believed that communism will create the better life for the people. And he told that we want to build the paradise on the earth. But how is it possible to live in the paradise surrounded by the barbed wire? So he told that we have to tell people the truth about Stalin's crimes and begin to build the real democratic socialism, or communism. And it is impossible to do without exposure of these crimes. It was a strong discussion in the Soviet leadership at the time. Mainly the members of the leadership were against this. Because they were scared that they could be also condemned. Not only condemned, but punished. My father answered them. Then, during Stalin's times, all members of the leadership were involved in these bloody affairs. But we have to tell people the truth and then they have to decide what to do. Without this, it will be impossible to go forward. Later, he told, that the night before speech he thought that maybe they will try to arrest him, but nothing happened.
Chat Participant: Was there a Soviet equivalent of the Star Wars program?
Sergei Khrushchev: Yes and no. Because most of the Soviet engineers did not believe in the effectiveness of the Star Wars. I also never believe in it. Because if you have conventional air force without nuclear weapons and you will shoot 80 or 90 percent of the enemy bombers, you will win and protect your country. But if 10 percent of the enemy's nuclear weapons will hit your country, this will mean that you failed in this protection. And I don't think that is it possible to shoot 100 percent of ballistic warheads. But from the other side of course, some people in Soviet military industrial complex used this idea and sent many proposals to build the same lasers as Americans.
Now it reminded me when my father talked to President Eisenhower and the president asked him, "Mr. Chairman, how do you deal with your military?" and my father was surprised why he asked such a question. But the president told, you know, that our generals, when they visit me and informed me that Soviets designed this and this and this, so they are becoming much stronger, and they need more funding to design their own weapons. And President Eisenhower told I'm answering that we have no more money in our budget, and military answered him, if you will not give us this money which is required, you will be responsible that we will lose the war. And so, Eisenhower told, at last I'm finding this money and paying for the new research. And my father then told President Eisenhower that this same thing had happened in the Soviet Union. So the president told my father, then maybe we will find how we can work together against our military. So it was just the same with Star Wars. There were some people who used Star Wars to achieve their own goals and have much more funding. In this case, the military industrialists on both sides really supported each other on the spending.
CNN Moderator: Some historians argue that Gorbachev's reforms began where your father left off. What do you think of that theory?
Sergei Khrushchev: You think that between Gorbachev and my father, there were 20 years. So the country changed at this time. I think there were some similarities. Because both of them honestly wanted to reform Soviet Union to the best and to stop the Cold War, or maybe prevent the possibility of world war. So, I think there is something in this thought.
Chat Participant: What did your father think of Eisenhower? And Kennedy?
Sergei Khrushchev: I will publish an 1,100 page book next year where I am writing about all these things, so I can't possibly answer in a few minutes. But he thought that both of these American leaders really want to prevent the war and to find some peaceful solutions. In this way, he trusted them, if it is possible to use this word 'trust' in the Cold War relations. He thought that Eisenhower was much more experienced politician than President Kennedy. But from the other side he thought that the real policy maker was somebody behind President Eisenhower. Because he told when the Geneva Conference in 1955 he sat next to American president at the table and when it came time for president to talk, Secretary of State John Foster Dulles gave him the sheets of paper and my father told that he was very surprised that American president read them like a student. He did not 'use' them. He read them from beginning to end. So he said we spoke with American president, but policy maker was somebody else. But President Kennedy he said was very different. During their meeting in Vienna, he never asked any advice. So he was really the person who made the American policy which made these relations easier.
Chat Participant: What were your first thoughts when you heard of Kennedy's death? What were your father's comments?
Sergei Khrushchev: I remember this evening very well. It was late evening in Moscow at that time. The foreign minister, Gromyko, called my father at home and my father was very upset and he asked him to call to the ambassador to confirm if it's true. And then he waited. He could not sit. He walked around the table awaiting the call. In 10 minutes, there were no call, and he called back to the foreign minister. And he asked, do you have the new information? And he said, no, I'm just waiting the connection to the embassy in Russia. My father said, I told you to call the American embassy in Moscow, it's much easier. But there was no need to call. Because it was announced that President Kennedy was dead. My father said, we have to send very high level delegation for his funeral. It was unusual, because we were really enemies. And he told my mother that you have to send a personal letter to Jacqueline Kennedy, which was even more unusual. And what I can tell really, the Soviet people liked the President Kennedy, maybe because he was young and dynamic. I was personally very upset.
CNN Moderator: Your father's policies toward Yugoslavia hinted at more openness toward Warsaw Pact countries, yet he ordered the 1956 crackdown in Hungary. Do you see that as a contradiction?
Sergei Khrushchev: I don't see any contradiction because it was the peak of the Cold War and the Americans tried to support the order in their side of the world. He tried to do the same in the Soviet bloc. At that time, it was beginning of the bloodshed in Hungary and it was impossible to stop it without using the force. He was successful in preventing similar bloody event in Poland a month earlier. It is very difficult to say who is right, who is wrong, because the blood is the same color on both sides.
Chat Participant: Were plans made for your family in the event of a nuclear attack? If so, what were they?
Sergei Khrushchev: You know what you are showing here, it is the naivete of the American society. Because we were never attacked by the real enemy. We just survived the German occupation of a big part of our country. So it was clear that if it will be the nuclear attack, nobody will survive. There were no special preparations. Of course, there was a bunker in the Kremlin and small bunker near my father's country house. But nobody really thought out, or tried to find out how to use them. I don't remember being there, even once. All the time it was locked. Even in the peak of the Cuban Missile Crisis, there were no special preparations.
CNN Moderator: Was the U.S. reaction to missiles in Cuba part of that same American naivete?
Sergei Khrushchev: No I think it's different, but it had the same rules. Because in Europe, Soviet Union, the other countries all the time had powerful enemies on their borders. There were Germans, Turks, Poles, so our way of thinking was not so much of the technical capability of the hostile weapons but of the political decisions of the leaders. So the Soviet leaders and the Soviet people were very unhappy that we were surrounded by the American air bases and missile bases, but it was part of our life. America all their history were protected by the oceans. They have no enemies close to the borders. So they more thinking and still thinking about technical capability of the strike than of the political decision. They still think that if somebody will have the missile which can reach their territory, the bad guy will push the button. When the Soviet Union deployed missiles on Cuba, when in reality Cuba is independent country, Americans were so scared that they even became mad, that they were ready to sacrifice their life in the nuclear war but keep these missiles out of the Cuban island. What I have in mind, because American public pressed the White House to begin the invasion in Cuba. But this invasion was very risky, and high possibility that it will be the beginning of the third world war, but they still pressed the president and president upholds this. I think we were very lucky that both leaders did not lose control over this situation. And so this crisis ended peacefully.
Chat Participant: Was your father still a true believer in the communist state at the end of his life?
Sergei Khrushchev: When we are talking about the true believers, was that the communist economy or centralized economy will be more effective than market economy. I can tell that he believed in this until the end of his life. But from the other side, he asked the question which he had no answer. Why does not effective as he expected? But for the most of the Soviet people, understanding that market economy is more effective came in the late '70s and at that time, my father passed away in 1971.
Chat Participant: I believe it is a common American perspective that the Soviet people were unaware of the true nature of events in the world. Did the Soviet people have the same perspective of the American people? Did you think that our government was giving us a false picture of the world?
Sergei Khrushchev: There were different people. But some of them of course thought that the Americans were misled by the government and the capitalists who controlled most of the money. But it was different in the different eras of the history because I don't think that Soviet people were so misled by the government. Because in the early period after the revolution and after World War II most of the Soviet people believed that our socialist idea will be more effective. We talked about this. Later they began to understand that something was wrong and they began not to trust the government. At the end of Brezhnev era, they did not trust them at all. A nice thing that it was also similar changes with their thoughts about Americans. In the old late Brezhnev times, Americans were more example of the good life which is why the reformation was so easy. There was no real opposition to the market reforms in Russia.
CNN Moderator: Do you still have family members in Russia? How does the Russian public think of your father's legacy today?
Sergei Khrushchev: We are living in the United States, two of us, my wife and me. Our children and grandchildren live in Moscow. My father had this bad luck because during this Brezhnev time, he became a non-person and his name was not mentioned. Now, when most of them became anti-communist they thought that he, it not so bad, so they also don't mention him too much. But in the last year, it was published one volume of his memoirs in Moscow, and they became best seller. And one of the newspapers even wrote that this book has to be the textbook for the candidates for the Russian presidents. And the third, it is sad for me, but Russians more and more try to see the hero and the Stalinists never liked my father. So it is very controversial in Russia, like everything.
CNN Moderator: We have time for one more question.
Chat Participant: How did your father handle his retirement? Was he bitter about being forced out of power?
Sergei Khrushchev: Yes, my father, retirement in Russia is very different than in U.S.. My father was very lucky that he was not executed. When he first came after the meeting when he was ousted [out] of power he told that it was impossible even to imagine that somebody can oust of the power the leader without bloody fight. Of course he had in mind Stalin. So he told would it be only one thing which I did, it would mean that I did not live my life for nothing. Because I changed this country. During his retirement, he rethought many things, and he dictated his memoirs, which were partially published in this country in 1970 and 1974 as "Khrushchev Remembers." Full memoirs will be published sometime in future if we raise enough money for the translation into English. It was not easy to write this memoirs and their circumstances because Brezhnev government and KGB tried to do everything to prevent this writing. By the way, I wrote all this story in my own book with the title "Khrushchev on Khrushchev." It was published in 1990 by Little Brown, so if someone is interested they can find this book in the library and read it.
CNN Moderator: Thank you for joining us. CNN Interactive hosts a COLD WAR chat every Sunday at 9:30 p.m. ET following CNN's COLD WAR series and CNN Postscript.
